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 BB Bastard Clears

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Lucuis
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PostSubject: BB Bastard Clears   Sat 01 May 2010, 8:23 pm

I just read over on ASC that availability of the BB Bastard Clears starts Monday! woot.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Mon 03 May 2010, 9:18 am

I wouldn't plan on buying a bunch of glass bb's unless you just want them for plinking. I'm pretty sure we don't want glass bb's flying around when several of our players use mesh masks or just goggles. Not to mention I don't think many of us would appreciate replacing scopes or RDS' that glass bb's shatter much easier than plastic ones.

Personally if I take a glass bb in the tooth I'll be looking to extract some teeth from whomever shot me with it. rabbit

http://www.begadishop.com/sheets/bcb-glas-028-review-english.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Mon 03 May 2010, 8:52 pm

The glass BBs won't shatter on mesh or concrete below about 3J point blank, if anything in that regard the are safer. Styrene vs Glass in the teeth, both are gonna break a tooth. Rustyfender can attest to that. If one is really concerned about dental health they would be covering their mouth.

I do agree damage to scopes and RDS' would be more likely, assuming they got hit in the first place.

I'd never use them for CQC though. I can see them a pain to clean up, and they ricochet like mad since they don't break. And the fact it's much more likely to hit people in the face, no point causing people more pain then necessary. Besides, the benefits of the glass BB would hardly be noticed in close quarters.

I think if used responsibly, like anything in airsoft, there won't be any noticeable difference. Other then the increased accuracy Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 12:21 am

should we put a ban on these for CQC right now?
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 12:40 am

I think we should ban them totally for games. I have no faith in the 3J they claimed was necessary to break the bb's. I've broken standard bb's including airsoft elite and metaltech at stock fps that some websites claimed were shatterproof. The website that glass bb review came from even has a disclaimer stating they are not suitable for gaming.

The way they break is catastrophic with shards of glass being evident in the photo. The risk is too high if one of these breaks or if it breaks a rds that someone happens to be looking through, glass shards in the eye. We didn't allow aluminum coated sniper rounds and they had zero chance of breaking, I fail to see why a more dangerous glass bb should be permitted.

I like my mesh goggles and my bolles way more than crappy paintball masks, one of the reasons I prefer airsoft over paintball. If glass bb's mean I have to start wearing paintball masks, I won't be playing. If we start allowing these in NIA games, I won't be playing with NIA any longer.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 12:47 am

I'd agree with a ban on them for cqc. Lucuis does make a good point about the glass bb's being used during CQC. They would could possibly be more harmful than it's worth. Outdoors isn't much of a concern seeming those are more ideal for that situation (as long as your not aiming for someone's face at 5 meters..lol). Afterall, it's all fun and games till someone loses an eye.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 1:15 am

Why is this even open to debate? I have been hit repeatedly in the face at shorter ranges than 5m in outdoor games. Daes nailed me with 4 or 5 bb's from across a road in a van game with his G36 back when we were still using safety glasses. The first couple actually knocked my glasses out of place, the third hit me in the forehead and another one in the lip. I seem to catch a couple bb's in the face at nearly every game regardless of what I'm wearing for face protection.

We are not talking a single sniper shot from 100 feet, these are 0.28's made of glass that people are starting to use in AEG's at full auto. This is not only dangerous but stupid. If someone uses glass bb's and it shatters or breaks a scope injuring someone's eye, there's a very real risk of permanent damage and a lawsuit. It's stupid to even consider these for games. How many of you can afford to pay me $100,000 per year to make up for my lost wages if you blind me and I can no longer work?
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 1:21 am

I tend to agree with TWS

Before May 1st, i would have said that glass would be more likely to break a tooth. But now we all know a stock gun with .25's will do the same job-- so that can't really be the deciding factor.
Personally I feel that while glass have some clear benefits, they decrease our margin of safety. Which we've tried real hard to establish. More stringent rules of eyewear and facemasks can regain the margin with the glass bbs...i.e. a person with mesh has to look over open sights, or up the impact rating of goggles, etc. Simply put, I suspect glass bbs will limit us in some other way to make up for the increased risk of damage.
Can we put a hold on gaming with them until some other sucke...i mean players...get half a year's worth of experience? I am sure if there are any issues after the summer playing season they will be all over ASC. If there are no issues by fall, well I am sure that too will be all over ASC.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 1:36 am

Do you have some links to other discussions and info?
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 1:43 am

Most of the places that are allowing them on ASC require full paintball masks on the field. It's pretty difficult to use optics with a full paintball mask, that's one of the reasons I prefer my Bolle's or mesh goggles. What's the point of even having scopes and RDS' if we can't use them? We just did an order for some fancy new stamped steel goggles, now we can't use them because someone decided they want to use glass bb's? That's a load of crap!

If you think a regular 0.28 can do the same damage to teeth as a glass 0.28 I suggest you try biting one of each and see which one does more damage. Glass bb's can easily break panes of glass, they've been compared to using a piece of spark plug to break a car window. Do we really want those in our van games?
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Lucuis
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 2:10 am

The BBs pictured in that pdf aren't the same as the ones from BBBastard.

From all the independent reviews of the BBBastard Clears i have seen one broken. And plenty of tests were done against concrete walls and such. The only one that was broken, was crushed in a vice, just to see what sort of forces was required to make it fail.

I'm personally more leary about Bio BBs and and low quality BBs. I've seen more normal BBs crack/shatter then i would like. And from what i've seen these Silica BBs are much more resistant to that.

As for silicas and mesh, there's nothing to worry about. Like mentioned before, if anything there safer. I'll do some tests and post them when i get some. I have a mesh mask from EB Airsoft that i'm not going to be using anymore, since i just got some ESS. So i won't mind going excessive on it to simulate a worse case scenario. But from what i've seen already, there's nothing to worry about.

I should also mention the reason I'm not using my mesh anymore. I've had BB fragments come through and hit my face, and in one case i had a paint chip from the inside come off and hit me in the eye. I was lucky it got me in the tear duct. So to be honest i've lost my faith in mesh masks altogether. I'll be avoiding using them.

I wasn't aware Bolle made eye protection suitable for airsoft. I thought they made sunglasses and sport goggles. Then again, ESS states in their product that there stuff is not to be used for airsoft, lol.

And no, glass bbs won't mean paintball masks. At least i don't think so. Mesh should be fine, but i'll test them on my cheap china ones to double check. Mouth protection i would recommend, for ALL bbs. So i don't see the difference there, a .28g BB will break a tooth regardless imo. A risk i fix with a makeshift shemagh.

I'm not trying to be stubborn, but I believe these are as safe as any BB to use outdoors. And I want to prove/disprove them before we decide whether we allow or disallow them at games.

Yes Dave, i'd ban these from CQC. Too much ricochet, hard too clean up. And not so much that they are glass, but the fact they are heavy. Too much unnecessary energy transfer for close quarters. 0.25g are plenty, lol. And even then, i'd use .20g if i had any left. I'll have to grab some light ones for next CQC season.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 3:03 am

Bolle T800's, all the rage in airsoft a couple years ago. Pretty popular amongst real life special forces as well. Smile


http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=99966&highlight=glass+bb%27s&page=8

Second to last post on this page mentions shooting out car windows with these BB Bastard Silicas at 100 feet. If you can shoot out windows at 100 feet you can shoot out teeth or scopes at the same range. This greatly increases the chances of busted teeth or scopes if we are allowing people to use them in full auto guns. Most engagement ranges even outdoors are likely less than 100 feet. I'd rather get some residue from a plastic bb through the mesh on my mask than glass fragments from a busted RDS or a car window.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 3:37 am

Hmm, pretty nice. Good reviews from what i just read too.

I did read the car window post a bit ago. Hard to say if it really was 100ft, and what he was shooting in terms of FPS. But i do agree if anyone was to use these, it'd be with discretion. Much like sniping and the high Joule limit. If ya want the power you must not abuse it, etc. If we were to allow these at games, you wouldn't see me going nutzo emptying mags. I hardly do that as it is now. Quite honestly I shot about 5 rounds last game.

Teeth, imo is not up to the shooter to worry about, other then the fact people should avoid head shots whenever possible. If someone shot me in the tooth and caused dmg, it'd be my fault for not protecting them, regardless of the type of BB. Unless of course they were intentionally unloading rounds at my face. Then i'd be cranky.

Scopes, I agree are a concern. Styrene BBs can and will break optics, keep that in mind. However the Silica ones will have an easier time in doing so.

I can't remember if they were the BB Bastard Clears or another type like the BBMAX, but if memory serves me the Windshields on vehicles are safe aside from point blank range. It's the driver and passenger windows that are a concern. Last i checked the Van only has a Windshield. But again user responsibility to not be stupid with them. I'd even be willing to run semi only for a whole game if we get to the point of game testing them.

Before I forget, i did a bit of research on the BCB Glass BBs. They ended up being total trash, shattering on impact with just about everything. The Silica ones we are debating about are supposedly extremely resilient in that regard.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 4:20 am

According to the ASC forum these things cause more impression damage to lenses in standard paintball masks and would result in more frequent lens replacements. I paid about $70 for each of my loaner paintball masks, and so far I've never had to replace them, but a couple shots from silica bb's and they'd have to be replaced.

It sounds like these bb's are pretty hard on gear in general, do we really want to be replacing gear just so some of us can use silica bb's? This may not be so bad for the odd player who only has to worry about his own gear but it would be especially costly to people like Dave and I who rent/loan out equipment on a regular basis. If we have to replace any of the stuff more frequently it cuts into the returns.

Overall these things sound like the damage they cause really outweighs whatever benefit you get.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 4:40 am

While I agree they can do more damage, most of the tests an ASC are worst case scenario tests.

Damage to receivers, lenses and the like are apparent with any BB of .28g and heavier. One of the ASC tests i remember reading said the .30g BB did the same damage to the receiver as the Silica BB.

Another I read showed 3 zones on a JT mask hit from 3 types of BBs one of which was a Silica BB. From the pictures and their words the damage was identical between the Silica and the similarly weighted BB. The lighter ones used did less damage of course. On the same note I did see one where the Silica BBs did leave a measurable dent compared to the standard BB.

It's hard to gauge a product when the reviews show difference of nothing to significant. I guess I'll just have to wait until I get some to do some tests of my own. I have a busted G&G body that might be willing to take some hits as well Smile

In theory these are supposed to be the perfect round projectile. No bubbles, smooth surface, stable flight because of that, and a decent weight. We'll see if all that makes a notable difference in accuracy and consistency.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 11:14 am

can we get some sources for the tests you guys are talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Tue 04 May 2010, 4:44 pm

They are all on ASC, some are done with Biovals BBMAX which are near identical in behavior.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Fri 07 May 2010, 6:01 pm

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=99966

is this the thread. I have some concerns and would like to see more testing done before we consider bringing them on the field.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Fri 07 May 2010, 7:05 pm

Yup that pretty well most of it, i think there are a couple other small ones. Not sure if they're about the Bioval BBMAXs though.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Mon 17 May 2010, 2:51 pm

I'd like to see some comparisons on glass breakage between standard and silica 0.28's with range and fps comparisons. In addition I think the difference in the impact depression left by silica bb's on goggles is significant and will contribute to earlier lens breakdown. Most of us are already pretty lax on goggle/lens replacement. Stupid I know, but that's the nature of people when it comes down to replacing a $60 lens or just trying to get one more game out of it.

I still don't see why we should have to change our face protection, the use of red dot scopes, risk damage to guns and gear, etc... just so a couple people can use silica bb's. After Dustin's goose egg yesterday I cringe at the thought of a silica bb hitting a RDS or even someone's goggles at that range. Not to mention the risk to camera lenses if someone is trying to get some action shots or video footage.
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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Fri 21 May 2010, 12:01 pm

im with smith on this one, if someone was to shoot somebody from the range i shot dustin with, with those bbs and hit is goggles he would of lost an eye. It is a god invention and could possibly be used for longer engagement range from the spring riflesm but there is no point to that, just use .32 or .4, if you want that accuracy.

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PostSubject: Re: BB Bastard Clears   Fri 21 May 2010, 12:54 pm

I have concerns about how they shatter and their effects on goggles. I would like to do some tests but my vote so far would be to wait until after testing to use them in a game. I am hesitant but am willing to do some testing.
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