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 Kraken Upgrade Inquiry

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Lucuis
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PostSubject: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Tue 09 Jun 2009, 7:37 pm

Sup doods. I've been looking into upgrading my Kraken's Internals and have a question or two.

First off what is your guys' opinions on the brand Modify. Buying from Airsoftparts.ca so far and they have a large selection of Modify parts. I read that it's usually good idea to stick with one brand for the internals to ensure everything works well together. I'd be fine with looking at other brands, just so far Modify is the only one i've found that is easily available, and quite inexpensive. Which could be good or bad.

My first thoughts for upgrading is of course steel bushings Smile After that i want to improve/reinforce the air seal. Then everything else, gears, inner barrel, etc.

Shims - Modify Stainless Steel Shims $4

Bushings - Modify 6mm Stainless Steel Bushings, Double Oil Channel $15

Cylinder Head - Modify Enhanced Cylinder Head $25

Piston Head - Modify Aluminum Bearing Piston Head $15

Air Nozzle - Modify Air Nozzle $9
I like this one since it has an internal o-ring

Cylinder - Modify Enhanced Cylinder Type-0 $15

Spring Guide - Modify Bearing Spring Guide v3 $15

Tappet Plate - Modify Enhanced Tappet $9

Inner Barrel - Up for debate

Gears - Not sure, I'm thinking maybe Modify Modular Gears

Spring - After all this is done i might have to get a softer spring. Assuming i'm shooting too hot that is.

Hop-up - Not really sure what needs to be done here. Or whether or not the Kraken's hop-up is tm compatible. (I've read that it could be or not) Either way i'll probably upgrade this when i do the inner barrel.

Also i'm goin' to grab some Systema Cylinder and Gear Grease. $18 and $12 respectively. As well as some Thread-Lock, anyone know where to get some? I seen the guy using it on mechbox.com

Any parts suggestions you may have, please inform on where i might get my hands on said part. As well as the approximate price. My budget is currently about $125. Recommendation on what to get first would be great as well. Cosmetic upgrades will have to wait i guess eh.

Thanks Smile


Last edited by Lucuis on Wed 10 Jun 2009, 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Tue 09 Jun 2009, 8:40 pm

Although I'm not sure 100% if the parts u chose are completly compatable for about the same price you can get a specific set that includes, piston, piston head, nozzle, bearing spring guide and cylender.

http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_126&products_id=1104

or this kit which has almost all the items you put on your list.

http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_132&products_id=1062

I know the latter is a bit beyond the budget but includes a gear set as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Tue 09 Jun 2009, 10:49 pm

Thanks you Knight. I wasn't toally sure on that cylinder set because i wasn't totally sure on a polycarb piston head, and it didn't say it was a bearing piston head. But after your suggestion i double checked, and the pic shows bearings. A polycarbonate piston head should be fine right?

I did also look at the larger set you linked, and it seems all fine and dandy, but i'm not really interested in a high speed setup. I believe the real steel ak's shoot about 750-850 rpm. And i'd like to keep it close to that. What i might end up doing is getting a modular torque up gear set and run a 9.6v battery. to up the rof back to standard.

Anyways i'm def considering that cylinder set. Saves me 9 bucks for the same stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 12:19 am

Don't go with high torque set up. The gears are more finicky and must be shimmed perfectly. I've worked on way too many guns that have had their torque gears stripped because of poor shimming. I`d invest in a good piston first before wasting money on torque gears.

Invest in a good set of reinforced gears Systema or Prometheus if you can find a set. Try to stay with the brand names, you`ll be better off.

If you can use a large 8.4v 3300 mAh battery you'd get the same ROF as a 9.6v, in fact, if you use a 7.3v 3300 mAh or bigger you'd get the same ROF.

Who are you getting to do your upgrade work?

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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 12:43 am

Wouldn't the modularity of the Modify Gear Set eliminate that problem? What would my options be if i stayed away from High Speed AND High Torque Gears? Is there such a thing as aftermarket Standard Ratio gears?

Or is that what you meant when you suggested Reinforced Gears?

As for who is upgrading, it'd be myself. I've done quite a lot of research, and thanks to Mechbox.com i've got to see inside the mechbox. However, despite being technically inclined, i wouldn't be against having someone who has done a mechbox rebuild there while i do it.

Thanks for the input.

EDIT: Came across these. http://www.mtmfg.ca/product/systema-steel-gear-set-1034.cfm

Little bit pricey, but if you really think they're worth it i might consider a set down the road. I may also find them at a discount somewhere else.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 10:47 am

yes the modular set is pre-shimmed. He is just looking to upgrade the stock parts in his Kraken. I recently ordered quite a few "Modify" branded parts and they seen to be decent quality even compared to the stock CA stuff in mine. The only reason I suggested a "kit" is all the parts a matched up, ask Bill (Gryph) even though parts are listed being compatible, some are not. I'm not sure if BeachBoy is reffering to "Torque Up" gearsets. here's an excert from the guide...

Part II - Transmission (Upgrades here will improve RoF, and are the greatest factor in overall reliability)
A) Gearsets
There's a lot of options on gears out there. I recommend either Guarder (about $35 shipped from eHobby on Ebay) or HurricanE for a low cost option (HK retailers have them). For maximum performance, get Prometheus. The extreme tuners at AirsoftMechanics always have problems with Systema and Pheonix gearsets - but Prometheus is the gold standard.
Here's the heirarchy of speed ratios and torque ratios. Starting with gearsets that optimize ROF when paired with weak springs (such as M100), and moving to ratios that optimize ROF with stronger springs (M120 and above).

Ultra-High Cycle: Made by Systema either in a gearset or FTK. These gears have built-in bearings, and are the *second* highest ratio available, HOWEVER. They are very expensive, hard to find, and very FRAGILE. The gears are made of lightweight aluminum and skeletonized, and direct feedback from users has indicated these gearsets do not last long even when paired with a weak M100 spring.
It is interesting to note the Ver.1 (FAMAS) Tokyo Marui stock gears are set at a faster ratio than any other in production (even the Systema UHC).
High Speed: Available in many brands. Available in Helical cut. Gear ratio is approximately 15% faster than stock, depending on manufacturer.
Standard/Original Ratio: Available in many brands. Available in helical cuts. These gears are capable of powering up to M130 springs with very fine tuning.
Torque Up: Available in many brands. Available in Helical cuts. This ratio lets your motor work easier, and may give you more battery life.
"Super, Double, Triple, etc." Torque Up (abbreviated 'STU'): Different manufacturers use different terminology. These ratios further reduce motor strain, and cut down top-end ROF. Available from several brands. Availible in Helical cut.
INFINITY TORQUE (abbreviated 'IFTU') or ULTRA TORQUE: These are nearly ALWAYS Helical Cut. This gear ratio uses a unique Spur/Sector Gear tooth geometry for a powerful torque increase, requiring a HALF-CUT PISTON (SEE APPENDIX). These gearsets can easily power M170 springs and beyond.

WHAT ARE HELICAL GEARS?
Helical simply refers to the gear teeth being cut diagonally (Helical) rather than straight (aka 'Flat'). Diagonal teeth are stronger, but only if shimmed correctly to ensure a PERFECT MESH.



I believe the gear sets we were looking at just have a different tooth count to change the gear ratio of the transmission "gear set". Rather than Helical cut gears.

Remember too this is still just upgrades to a Kraken, if you don't get too carried away when you invest in a higher quality AEG there won't be so many necessary upgrades. I think you are just trying to do a little upgrading to prolong the life of your gun which is a good idea. For example there is an all wood and metal TM AK for sale in the Kelowna for $400.
http://www.airsoftkelowna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4553
I'd be more inclined to upgrade that one. (Just better resale value down the road)
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 11:00 am

For the Kracken I would recomend you just start with spring guide and bushings, asuming it's already been shimmed if not that's mandatory for a kracken (you may need more then one set of shims for the kracken. I would leave the gears unless they break. Also i have been told you'll eventualy loose fps out of the spring thats in there. I highly recomend replacing the inner barrel. It's a higher priority then most of the other stuff you lested. It'l greatly improve your acuracy and a slight fps bump. I would recommend the mad bull 6.03 barrel. I would hold off on the rest for a while at least. It's not realy anything you need unless you start running into problems.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 6:23 pm

Great advice guys, ty.

As for upgrading Kraken. My theory is it only cost me $200. Most other stock ak-47 i see from G&G etc are $340 at the cheapest and i still would probably upgrade more then one thing on it. That leaves me $140+ to work with on internals. So far i think it seems more cost effective. Plus, i'm a bit of a tinkerer Smile

Thanks for the info on the Modify brand knightwarrior, greatly appreciated. They seem to be a good budget alternative to the expensive stuff.

I read that in some cases the Kraken's hop up unit needs to be replaced with a TM compatible one in order to change the inner barrel. And in some cases not... I'm guessing it'd be wise to get an inner barrel along with a new hop up unit. Unless there's a simple way of determining whether or not i have a compatible hop up already.

So so far from what i gather it seems best to go with the listed upgrades first.

Bushings
Shims - Possible a couple sets?
Spring Guide
Inner Barrel
Hop-up and Bucking - provided it's required for the inner barrel exchange
Grease

Also is there anything else that would have to be purchased along with http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_80&products_id=397 Or does it come with the rubber and what-not?

Those particular upgrades would cost me about $150 after tax and shipping. $112 if i don't need the hop-up unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 6:37 pm

Gryph should be able to answer your hopup up question, since he has a Kraken and is busy trying to make it into a SVD.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 7:45 pm

Torque gears suck. I know the modifys come pre-shimmed and with bushings, but you're better off getting actual branded name stuff and doing it properlly. I second billy's upgrade list. What you have listed will be fine. Unless you are planning on shooting 375 fps consistantly your stock gears will take it.

A few notes when purchasing:

Bushing - don't get ball bearing, ROF may be higher, but there are lots of fitment issues and they are a pain to work with. Never the less, they also suck when they break. (ask Horton). Keep an eye out for oil-less Systema metal bushings (for around $10-15).

Shims - you will only 'need' on bag

Spring guide - metal & ball bearing

Barrel - Madbull 6.03

Hop Up - do not get a 'hard' type

Good luck!

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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 8:34 pm

I could only find the Systema Bushings at this location. http://www.mtmfg.ca/product/systema-oilless-metal-bushings-1033.cfm It'd cost me almost another $20 for those over some oiless ones from airsoftparts.ca because of the extra shipping and the $5 premium on the systema brand name.

Now airsoftparts.ca has these http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_131&products_id=959 but i'm goin' to guess those won't fit in a v3 gearbox.

Unless i can find some Systema bushings from a shop that offers free shipping, intown, or another site that has everything i plan to order in one place. I will most likely grab these, http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_131&products_id=676

Also i do plan on pulling the ak apart at some point to do some painting. If there's not easy way to tell if i need a new hop-up for an inner barrel, i'm guessing it'd be pretty obvious once i have the gun apart. Provided i get the information required to determine whether i need one or not. Currently i wouldn't be able to tell Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Wed 10 Jun 2009, 8:45 pm

Those bushings will be fine, anything other than the stock plastic ones are better.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Thu 11 Jun 2009, 1:53 am

Agreed, the bushings will be fine.

For the hop up, if you have noticed that your current hop up, even at the highest setting, is not doing anything - then you need a new hop up. If your hop up is working fine (when applied and not) then do not replace it! Don't mess with a good thing. Order one in for a backup, they're always good to have around, but don't change it unless you see a significant decrease in its performance.

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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Thu 11 Jun 2009, 4:36 am

So far i have no issue with the current hop-up, it's working as intended. I just need to determine whether or not the current hop-up works with aftermarket inner barrels. Here's hopin' Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Thu 11 Jun 2009, 9:11 am

It should, I haven't seen any difference in barrels no matter what brand, other than bore diameter and length. My scar is an oddball length so I'm gonna have to cut my tight bore when I get it.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Thu 11 Jun 2009, 10:44 am

Sorry Beach but with some Krackens you do need more then one pack of shims I agree most guns will use less then one pack but some Krackens have the slopiest gears I've ever seen.
When you look at your hop up if it's black it's tm compatabil.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Fri 12 Jun 2009, 2:33 am

Sounds good, go with Billy's advice. Although I think the 'if it's black, it's compatible' is a little sketchy to go by - but the majority of the time it is correct.

Your hop up rubber will be compatible with TM, Kraken's are copies of TM, and will have no problem fitting the hop up. Knight is right, you may have to cut your barrel to make it fit, so its better to buy a barrel that is just bigger than the gun to ensure the inner barrel will be the right size.

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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Fri 12 Jun 2009, 3:43 am

Yeah, i'm hoping it's compatible. But it won't be the end of the world if i have to get a new hop-up unit after the fact.

I'll be going with a 455mm standard AK length inner barrel. A Madbull python v2 6.03 tightbore as per Bill's suggestion.

Thanks again for all your guys' help, it's greatly appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: Kraken Upgrade Inquiry   Fri 12 Jun 2009, 10:36 am

The if it's black is a kracken thing. If it's black it's the second gen. which is 100% compatable. The kracken uses the standard AK length barrel.
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